so it feels like therapists never actually do anything actually do anything looking to vent my frustrations and looking to vent my frustrations and advice on what direction to take advice on what direction to take um for the past six to seven years i'm um for the past six to seven years i'm 26 now my mental health has been in the 26 now my mental health has been in the gutter gutter to put put it quite simply i don't want to put put it quite simply i don't want to be alive it feels like too much work to be alive it feels like too much work and too much suffering every day and too much suffering every day the reason i am still alive is because i the reason i am still alive is because i feel a responsibility towards people feel a responsibility towards people that have helped me in the past that have helped me in the past to get better and keep fighting over to get better and keep fighting over this period of six years i've seen many this period of six years i've seen many therapists and none of them have therapists and none of them have actually helped me at all actually helped me at all most of it was just me talking about my most of it was just me talking about my problems and them sitting there and not problems and them sitting there and not offering any advice offering any advice i gave up on therapy for a while but i gave up on therapy for a while but during the last half year i've been during the last half year i've been getting into it again out of getting into it again out of desperation my theory for why it hadn't desperation my theory for why it hadn't done anything for me so far was because done anything for me so far was because i hadn't given my therapist any i hadn't given my therapist any direction direction for that reason i decided for my first for that reason i decided for my first appointment i would bring a list appointment i would bring a list with all things that i was suffering with all things that i was suffering from ranging from physical responses from ranging from physical responses intrusive thoughts external intrusive thoughts external circumstances and abstract circumstances and abstract concepts like lack of meaning i asked
concepts like lack of meaning i asked him which of these can you help me with him which of these can you help me with unfortunately in typical therapist unfortunately in typical therapist fashion fashion the answer was dodged and soon we were the answer was dodged and soon we were back to me talking to a brick wall back to me talking to a brick wall uh after four sessions with this uh after four sessions with this therapist he recommended me to search therapist he recommended me to search for another one for another one one with a more pragmatic attitude since one with a more pragmatic attitude since i seem to be i seem to be really be looking for answers even really be looking for answers even though i was disappointed i agreed and though i was disappointed i agreed and found another therapy practice found another therapy practice this one was based in act acceptance and this one was based in act acceptance and commitment therapy commitment therapy the therapists here were actually really the therapists here were actually really nice but act never really clicked with nice but act never really clicked with me me i did all the exercise they gave me but i did all the exercise they gave me but it didn't really seem to have any effect it didn't really seem to have any effect all of the points they made here seemed all of the points they made here seemed like general no-brainer stuff like general no-brainer stuff it seemed like they were quoting it seemed like they were quoting directly from thanks i'm cured directly from thanks i'm cured following dr k's advice on how to be a following dr k's advice on how to be a good patient i actually brought this up good patient i actually brought this up recently recently they were very responsive to what i said they were very responsive to what i said and yesterday i had to talk with them and yesterday i had to talk with them about general direction about general direction unfortunately here i really struggled unfortunately here i really struggled with getting any answers out of them
with getting any answers out of them i asked them again what they could help i asked them again what they could help me with and they gave never gave an me with and they gave never gave an answer answer as to what the therapy was actually as to what the therapy was actually meant to bring me meant to bring me i asked them if maybe my suffering i asked them if maybe my suffering wasn't necessarily caused by cognitive wasn't necessarily caused by cognitive responses to stuff responses to stuff and so maybe more so by instinctive and so maybe more so by instinctive physical and emotional reactions physical and emotional reactions like a some scar i was willing to accept like a some scar i was willing to accept that this was not the case and it that this was not the case and it that it was caused by a cognitive blind that it was caused by a cognitive blind spot spot so i asked them what they thought was so i asked them what they thought was more likely more likely here again they would not give me a here again they would not give me a conclusive answer they again put the conclusive answer they again put the ball back in my court and gave me a few ball back in my court and gave me a few options i could switch to a options i could switch to a more physical form of therapy try emdr more physical form of therapy try emdr continue with talk focused act or look continue with talk focused act or look for a different clinic for a different clinic they also said that for instinctive body they also said that for instinctive body focus stuff i would maybe focus stuff i would maybe maybe better off in the alternative maybe better off in the alternative medicine circuit medicine circuit the problem right now is i simply do not the problem right now is i simply do not know i was hoping that therapists could know i was hoping that therapists could offer some form of expertise on offer some form of expertise on on this all i know is that i don't want on this all i know is that i don't want to be alive and that i want that to
to be alive and that i want that to change change i've lost faith in therapy for the most i've lost faith in therapy for the most part and i don't feel like they have part and i don't feel like they have much to offer me much to offer me but i don't want to give up i feel like but i don't want to give up i feel like i'm i'm all i can do is pick one of these all i can do is pick one of these options on feeling and hope for the best options on feeling and hope for the best as i can't really make an informed as i can't really make an informed decision anyone here with a lot of decision anyone here with a lot of experience in the therapy world experience in the therapy world that has suggestions on what direction that has suggestions on what direction to take i like how dr k is so focused on to take i like how dr k is so focused on solving problems and i don't feel solving problems and i don't feel any therapist has ever been like that any therapist has ever been like that so this is a really good question okay so this is a really good question okay so here's what i'm sort of hearing just so here's what i'm sort of hearing just to kind of summarize to kind of summarize so some people will go to therapy for so some people will go to therapy for years and years and they'll feel like the therapy really they'll feel like the therapy really isn't helpful and a lot of times what'll isn't helpful and a lot of times what'll happen is a patient will come into a happen is a patient will come into a therapist's office and they'll say like therapist's office and they'll say like or a lot of times you show up right and or a lot of times you show up right and like you're not really sure what therapy like you're not really sure what therapy is or they're the expert so you let them is or they're the expert so you let them kind of lead kind of lead but they don't really seem to be leading but they don't really seem to be leading anywhere in fact anywhere in fact most of what they're doing is like most of what they're doing is like asking you to lead and it's really
asking you to lead and it's really confusing because confusing because you know you don't know how to lead like you know you don't know how to lead like if you knew how to lead like you if you knew how to lead like you wouldn't be in therapy right like you're wouldn't be in therapy right like you're there for their expertise there for their expertise and then therapists also were trained in and then therapists also were trained in this way to be like very reflective in this way to be like very reflective in terms of like if someone comes to us for terms of like if someone comes to us for an answer an answer we kind of like put it back on them it's we kind of like put it back on them it's the classic therapy dodge it's like the the classic therapy dodge it's like the most most you know simple you know simple like reflex that we're taught like reflex that we're taught what can you help me with and then we what can you help me with and then we answer a question with a question answer a question with a question what do you think we can help you with what do you think we can help you with and i think this is kind of and i think this is kind of it's actually like sort of a problem it's actually like sort of a problem because because what this means is that like you know what this means is that like you know you're kind of like you're not really you're kind of like you're not really offering any kind of guidance to offering any kind of guidance to patients because that's not what we're patients because that's not what we're trained to do trained to do because what what can we how can we because what what can we how can we really guide them really guide them and i think it's a huge issue because a and i think it's a huge issue because a lot of times people are coming for us lot of times people are coming for us to us for like guidance like we want a to us for like guidance like we want a plan plan about how to move forward and this is
about how to move forward and this is where where you know i remember when i was trained you know i remember when i was trained to be a therap like training to be a to be a therap like training to be a therapist like you know therapist like you know i was taught that if someone comes in i was taught that if someone comes in and says like my goal is to get a and says like my goal is to get a girlfriend can you help me with that girlfriend can you help me with that we were trained to say no we can't we were trained to say no we can't because like because like we can't control anything about their we can't control anything about their lives outside of here lives outside of here and i think that this is why if we look and i think that this is why if we look at like life coaching it's interesting at like life coaching it's interesting because if you look at like you know because if you look at like you know the psychotherapy subreddit for example the psychotherapy subreddit for example there'll be like a post on there there'll be like a post on there every couple months about how like every couple months about how like coaching is a scam and like coaching is a scam and like why are people getting help from coaches why are people getting help from coaches and like there's no license there's no and like there's no license there's no training so like why are coaches popping training so like why are coaches popping up everywhere up everywhere right like like what what i think right like like what what i think therapists need to understand therapists need to understand is that like we've sort of failed is that like we've sort of failed our patients or clients or humans in a our patients or clients or humans in a particular way particular way based on our approach because we're not based on our approach because we're not about problem solving about problem solving right like that's not really what right like that's not really what therapy is about like therapy is all therapy is about like therapy is all i'm generally speaking if you look at i'm generally speaking if you look at the roots of therapy it was sort of like the roots of therapy it was sort of like based on sigmund freud who sat there and
based on sigmund freud who sat there and was like believed that the more was like believed that the more neutral he was the more stuff would come neutral he was the more stuff would come out out and if stuff comes out that the goal of and if stuff comes out that the goal of therapy is to like let stuff come out therapy is to like let stuff come out and if you let stuff come out and if you let stuff come out that will fix things so that's generally that will fix things so that's generally speaking like the speaking like the the goal of therapy is that you've got the goal of therapy is that you've got stuff buried in there and if we can stuff buried in there and if we can bring it out of you bring it out of you then you'll move in the right direction then you'll move in the right direction i think part of the problem is that i think part of the problem is that therapists are afraid therapists are afraid to take responsibility for their to take responsibility for their patients patients right like we're afraid to say like oh right like we're afraid to say like oh yeah like i yeah like i i can't because then it like then it's i can't because then it like then it's our skin in the game our skin in the game right because like therapists have we right because like therapists have we have this really interesting kind of have this really interesting kind of training where it's like we training where it's like we you know we don't really like accept you know we don't really like accept responsibility like if if your patient responsibility like if if your patient drops out of treatment like whose fault drops out of treatment like whose fault is that is that and generally speaking what i find is and generally speaking what i find is that when you when you are a therapist that when you when you are a therapist and you go to supervision and you go to supervision very few therapists will say like maybe very few therapists will say like maybe you could have done something better you could have done something better like most of the time it's the sort of like most of the time it's the sort of thing where like thing where like you know the patient really couldn't
you know the patient really couldn't wasn't ready yet wasn't ready yet so we have all these kinds of things so we have all these kinds of things that we sort of tell ourselves as that we sort of tell ourselves as therapists therapists that sort of make it like not our fault that sort of make it like not our fault and so this is where part of the reason and so this is where part of the reason that we kind of have a that we kind of have a um and i think that that that approach um and i think that that that approach is useful okay so for the record like i is useful okay so for the record like i think that therapy is really good like i think that therapy is really good like i do that a lot you know i bring things do that a lot you know i bring things out of people out of people um it's useful but i think it doesn't um it's useful but i think it doesn't work for everyone and this is why i work for everyone and this is why i think coaching has emerged think coaching has emerged as like a field and why people are so as like a field and why people are so interested in it interested in it because coaches are better at like because coaches are better at like offering people answers they're like offering people answers they're like better at being externally focused better at being externally focused they will actually sometimes like give they will actually sometimes like give you direction give you advice you direction give you advice give you things that like therapists are give you things that like therapists are trained trained not to do so like therapists are sort of not to do so like therapists are sort of trained like don't ever tell your trained like don't ever tell your patient to quit your job or patient to quit your job or break up with someone or something like break up with someone or something like that what we're trained to do as that what we're trained to do as therapists is therapists is sort of say like oh are you unhappy then sort of say like oh are you unhappy then what do you think you should do if what do you think you should do if you're unhappy like what are the things
you're unhappy like what are the things that you can change like we sort of like that you can change like we sort of like let them come to the decision we don't let them come to the decision we don't say like i think you should quit say like i think you should quit and this is this is kind of interesting and this is this is kind of interesting because i remember when i was like because i remember when i was like training to become a therapist i was training to become a therapist i was like doing something like what i do like doing something like what i do on on stream and stuff and then one of on on stream and stuff and then one of my supervisors was like i don't think i my supervisors was like i don't think i can supervise you anymore and i said can supervise you anymore and i said why is that and she said well you're not why is that and she said well you're not doing therapy and i was like well then doing therapy and i was like well then what am i doing she's like i don't know what am i doing she's like i don't know your patients seem to like it but it is your patients seem to like it but it is a therapy a therapy and so that i was like really surprised and so that i was like really surprised and i think in the history of and i think in the history of you know my residency program i'm the you know my residency program i'm the only one that i can think of that has only one that i can think of that has ever had like a ever had like a a supervisor kind of you know a supervisor kind of you know fire them essentially it was totally it fire them essentially it was totally it worked out great uh because i went to worked out great uh because i went to you know we went to our program director you know we went to our program director and and and the the supervisor was really and the the supervisor was really awesome she was just like i just don't awesome she was just like i just don't know what you're doing and i don't think know what you're doing and i don't think i can help you i can help you grow in this capacity because you seem grow in this capacity because you seem to want to do what you want to do to want to do what you want to do and so we found someone else that was and so we found someone else that was like much more amenable to my style and
like much more amenable to my style and like really helped me immensely it was like really helped me immensely it was really awesome and i really appreciate really awesome and i really appreciate the supervisor for doing that because the supervisor for doing that because she was just like you know really she was just like you know really cognizant of like i don't know what this cognizant of like i don't know what this kid is doing but it seems to be pretty kid is doing but it seems to be pretty good so good so rather than force him to learn what i do rather than force him to learn what i do i think maybe you should find someone i think maybe you should find someone who can like support you in what you do who can like support you in what you do um which is why mgh and um which is why mgh and harvard medical school are fantastic harvard medical school are fantastic places because you sometimes have people places because you sometimes have people like that like that um so you know i i think that um so you know i i think that so what we do like and so i understand so what we do like and so i understand what this person is frustrated with what this person is frustrated with because a lot of times like because a lot of times like therapists are like trained to like not therapists are like trained to like not give you an answer and the reason we're give you an answer and the reason we're trained to not give you an answer is trained to not give you an answer is because because what if we're wrong oh my god and then what if we're wrong oh my god and then then the patient will blame us and if then the patient will blame us and if they blame us like that'll rupture the they blame us like that'll rupture the therapeutic alliance therapeutic alliance so what we're gonna do is like if i so what we're gonna do is like if i order for both of us at a restaurant you order for both of us at a restaurant you don't like the food you're gonna blame don't like the food you're gonna blame me so what i'm gonna do is sit down me so what i'm gonna do is sit down at the restaurant and never order a damn at the restaurant and never order a damn thing and so therefore if i never order
thing and so therefore if i never order a damn thing you never have a damn thing you never have any ability to complain you can't hold any ability to complain you can't hold me accountable for anything me accountable for anything if i don't take responsible for anything if i don't take responsible for anything so this is where like i think it's crazy so this is where like i think it's crazy because i is a because i is a as a profession i think therapists like as a profession i think therapists like this is just my opinion okay like maybe this is just my opinion okay like maybe people disagree but people disagree but i'm sure people disagree but i think i'm sure people disagree but i think like as a profession we're trained to like as a profession we're trained to not take responsibility for our patients not take responsibility for our patients right and it sort of makes sense like if right and it sort of makes sense like if you're working with someone who's you're working with someone who's suicidal you can't really like suicidal you can't really like ultimately it's that it's gonna be their ultimately it's that it's gonna be their choice like whether they kill themselves choice like whether they kill themselves or not you can't make them do anything or not you can't make them do anything you can't you can't control another human being so i control another human being so i understand where that lack of understand where that lack of responsibility comes from responsibility comes from but there's also like a lack of but there's also like a lack of responsibility right which is kind of responsibility right which is kind of weird weird and so this is where like you know i and so this is where like you know i think that this needs to change and i think this is why coaching is is growing so much is why coaching is is growing so much is because like because like people want to make actual changes in people want to make actual changes in their life like they want to fix their life like they want to fix things and sometimes they're looking for
things and sometimes they're looking for answers answers and part of what i'm a big fan of is and part of what i'm a big fan of is like giving people like giving people bad answers because when you give bad answers because when you give someone an answer you're like hey man someone an answer you're like hey man try this try this and then they're like yeah that didn't and then they're like yeah that didn't work and then it's like okay you want me work and then it's like okay you want me to give you another suggestion to give you another suggestion and then eventually they're like that's and then eventually they're like that's kind of funny they're like no no kind of funny they're like no no your suggestions suck and i was like and your suggestions suck and i was like and i'm like fantastic i'm like fantastic so if my suggestions suck what do you so if my suggestions suck what do you think we should do and there's a huge think we should do and there's a huge difference between difference between doing that and sort of starting with doing that and sort of starting with what do you think we should do what do you think we should do because if we establish that i'm because if we establish that i'm incompetent like it's actually incompetent like it's actually really healthy for the therapeutic really healthy for the therapeutic relationship because then people are relationship because then people are like okay at least the dude's trying like okay at least the dude's trying and i'm invested but i'm just and i'm invested but i'm just incompetent and then help me incompetent and then help me i ask the patient to help me help them i ask the patient to help me help them because i really want to help them i'm because i really want to help them i'm not quite sure how can you help me do it not quite sure how can you help me do it and that's where like that's where the and that's where like that's where the real money is because then the two of us real money is because then the two of us are working together are working together right it's not like they're coming to me right it's not like they're coming to me for answers for answers and it's not like i'm absolving myself
and it's not like i'm absolving myself of all responsibility it's sort of like of all responsibility it's sort of like i can't do this on my own i can't fix i can't do this on my own i can't fix you i've tried i've tried to fix you as you i've tried i've tried to fix you as a therapist a therapist and then they're sort of like well you and then they're sort of like well you know i know you can't fix me but i can't know i know you can't fix me but i can't do it on my own either do it on my own either and then we get to this conversation and then we get to this conversation that's like let's do it together that's like let's do it together and it's when we start doing it together and it's when we start doing it together that real progress starts to happen that real progress starts to happen and the problem that i'm seeing is that and the problem that i'm seeing is that like a lot of therapists and this is like a lot of therapists and this is what keeps people unsatisfied is that a what keeps people unsatisfied is that a lot of therapists don't lot of therapists don't try to do it with you right they just try to do it with you right they just tell you to do it tell you to do it by yourself and they're just going to by yourself and they're just going to bounce things back at you bounce things back at you and so it's tough but i think that like and so it's tough but i think that like you know you know if you're in this situation so first of if you're in this situation so first of all props to this person for all props to this person for looking for therapists after therapist looking for therapists after therapist after therapist and i'd say that like after therapist and i'd say that like this is where you know you just got to this is where you know you just got to be a little bit careful because i be a little bit careful because i i don't know if like i think it you can i don't know if like i think it you can get a lot from therapy especially if get a lot from therapy especially if you've got a clinical illness you've got a clinical illness but i'd say that like lean a little bit but i'd say that like lean a little bit towards um
towards um you know lean a little bit towards you know lean a little bit towards spirituality uh spirituality uh maybe work with an hg coach i mean maybe work with an hg coach i mean they're trained in a lot of the stuff they're trained in a lot of the stuff that that um you know a lot of the stuff is gonna um you know a lot of the stuff is gonna sound somewhat similar to therapy but sound somewhat similar to therapy but they're not trained to be therapists they're not trained to be therapists they'll try to help you sniff out of they'll try to help you sniff out of some scar things like that and we're actually going to offer additional training to our coaches about additional training to our coaches about problem solving so problem solving so you know trying to help people make you know trying to help people make external changes in their life which is external changes in their life which is something that's a weakness of our something that's a weakness of our program right now program right now because too often they try too hard to because too often they try too hard to problem-solve they're like oh just do problem-solve they're like oh just do this this and this is the problem is because like and this is the problem is because like just do this is like just do this is like just work out just eat healthy just go just work out just eat healthy just go practice and talk to five people a day practice and talk to five people a day go up to five strangers then just talk go up to five strangers then just talk to them that's how you'll overcome your to them that's how you'll overcome your social anxiety social anxiety so that's the problem with solutions so that's the problem with solutions right like it's like you can offer right like it's like you can offer people solutions but if they're not people solutions but if they're not ready to like meet them then that's ready to like meet them then that's a challenge just don't be depressed a challenge just don't be depressed exactly just win forehead
exactly just win forehead just get better rng in your loot boxes just get better rng in your loot boxes noob noob um yeah so here's what i'd say you know um yeah so here's what i'd say you know if you're if you're you know if you're struggling with you know if you're struggling with therapy like i think that it's good therapy like i think that it's good to let people know that things don't to let people know that things don't seem to be working for you seem to be working for you let people know that you're trying hard let people know that you're trying hard that you've seen a bunch of therapists that you've seen a bunch of therapists but that you're actually like looking but that you're actually like looking for answers and you'd like for answers and you'd like like their help doing it like their help doing it i think on the one hand i'm really happy i think on the one hand i'm really happy with the way that this person has been with the way that this person has been treated by his therapist because they treated by his therapist because they kind of say like i don't think i can kind of say like i don't think i can help you it's not what i do help you it's not what i do and at the same time like because you and at the same time like because you got to be professional about it i'm also got to be professional about it i'm also disappointed disappointed because like what i'm not hearing from because like what i'm not hearing from these therapists is hey i don't know how these therapists is hey i don't know how to do this to do this but i'm gonna try to learn right like i but i'm gonna try to learn right like i understand you're suffering you've seen understand you're suffering you've seen a bunch of people a bunch of people it's not what i'm trained in but like it's not what i'm trained in but like i'm willing to try to figure things out i'm willing to try to figure things out with you will you give me a chance even with you will you give me a chance even though i don't know how to help you though i don't know how to help you and it it's just not something you know
and it it's just not something you know what we see is like oh yeah try this what we see is like oh yeah try this other form of therapy like it's like a other form of therapy like it's like a pass the buck kind of thing right like pass the buck kind of thing right like oh like oh like sorry i can't help you like go see sorry i can't help you like go see someone else like sorry i can't help you someone else like sorry i can't help you go see someone else go see someone else and then we end up with people like this and then we end up with people like this and you know a lot of times these people and you know a lot of times these people wind up in my office wind up in my office and and like the people who wind up in and and like the people who wind up in my office have been in therapy for like my office have been in therapy for like 10 years 10 years they're like yeah like it doesn't seem they're like yeah like it doesn't seem to work and then they show up here to work and then they show up here and i'm like well i'm probably not and i'm like well i'm probably not better than them better than them but let's see if we can figure something but let's see if we can figure something out you know like i out you know like i i can't help you but i'm willing to try i can't help you but i'm willing to try and it works out well yeah i mean i and it works out well yeah i mean i think like think like you know therapists i think need to you know therapists i think need to start taking a little bit more start taking a little bit more responsibility for the outcomes of their responsibility for the outcomes of their patients patients it blows my mind you know like i know it it blows my mind you know like i know it sounds absolutely crazy but like sounds absolutely crazy but like therapists don't measure outcomes for therapists don't measure outcomes for their patients their patients like you'll measure you know like you'll like you'll measure you know like you'll you'll do things like that's patient you'll do things like that's patient specific right so people will administer specific right so people will administer like depression scales and anxiety
like depression scales and anxiety scales and things like that scales and things like that so you'll do that like for an individual so you'll do that like for an individual case which is standard of care case which is standard of care but i've never seen a a you know a group but i've never seen a a you know a group therapy practice therapy practice that takes all of their client data and that takes all of their client data and compares it compares it like oh like i tend to improve like oh like i tend to improve depression by 25 depression by 25 and my colleagues actually improve it by and my colleagues actually improve it by 45 45 what are they doing that i'm not doing what are they doing that i'm not doing right we don't do that there's no like right we don't do that there's no like form of feedback like i don't even know form of feedback like i don't even know it's also like part of kind of bizarre it's also like part of kind of bizarre but like how do you give feedback to a but like how do you give feedback to a therapist therapist you know how does a therapist know if you know how does a therapist know if they're doing something wrong they're doing something wrong it's it's weird it's like almost like it's it's weird it's like almost like the education system like i think part the education system like i think part of the reason that of the reason that coaching is cropping up and i think part coaching is cropping up and i think part of like what makes our coaching program of like what makes our coaching program like pretty successful is that like we like pretty successful is that like we measure measure outcomes very diligently and we like outcomes very diligently and we like notice when someone is not doing a good notice when someone is not doing a good job and then we like job and then we like intervene with them so intervene with them so so the answer is try coaching instead of so the answer is try coaching instead of therapy like it's worth a shot therapy like it's worth a shot right so like if you've tried therapy
right so like if you've tried therapy for six or seven years and for six or seven years and tried a bunch of different things i'm tried a bunch of different things i'm not saying stop doing it but i'm saying not saying stop doing it but i'm saying maybe try something else maybe try something else maybe try something that's a slightly maybe try something that's a slightly different approach different approach um and and for people that are you know um and and for people that are you know like like trained differently right if you're trained differently right if you're looking for answers not to say that our looking for answers not to say that our coaches can necessarily give you answers coaches can necessarily give you answers um but i i do think that they i mean um but i i do think that they i mean the data suggests that they seem to be the data suggests that they seem to be helping people helping people and they're certainly not trained as and they're certainly not trained as therapists so like they're doing therapists so like they're doing something that isn't therapy so